This is no doubt the most frustrating discussion I have posted thus far. Here goes. EXTREMELY LONG AND STILL BEING EDITED. (>.>)
Ellen: hey john. i dont want to get into a serious religious discussion, unless absolutely necessary, however, i would just like to know why you dont believe in God. i mean, i suppose there is a reason for everything, and this brought me to wonder why. write back when you can. thanks.
Jaffool: Look at my agnosticism note for why I don't believe in God. Remember, I don't deny His possible existence, I just don't believe in Him.
Ellen: Alrighty, I have read it.
Now, the paragraph that interested me the most was the one about free will. and how the cruel persons were placed in the world, for no divine purpose.
and i quote. "He willingly puts the evil people here, knowing what they'll do to so many. If He put them here in hopes that they will do something good, then He is stupid for knowing exactly what they will do and hoping for something different"
i hate some trouble with this statement. it perplexed me (as im sure you made it to be) So i came to the assumption that you DO believe that everyone has a purpose? yes?
it is to my belief or opinion that everyone in the world DOES have a purpose. Have you ever thought, not about those who are EVIL in the world as the ones WITHOUT the divine purpose, but as those whom they are hurting, (maybe even the families of those) as the ones who DO have such a divine purpose??? Lets take an abused child for example. Do you not know of the countless people who have been abused, or hurt, that have even a GREATER testimony because of it?? you see, it is my opinion, that the abusive parents, WERE put there for a reason. so that they're children would have a great testimony for the Lord.(testimony meaning that they could "save" even more, and send more people to heaven, which all in all is the most important thing). I believe that the parents DID have a GREATER purpose than that somewhere along the way, however, they're FREE WILL is what, essentially, changed the course of they're life.
I have much more to discuss, but i would just like to hear your thoughts and/or opinions on the matter which i believe i have explained. if i have not put it in enough detail, feel free to tell me so. thank you for your time.
Jaffool: First things first, you don't have to be so formal. We're friends, religion won't change that. This is something I very much enjoy discussing, so giving my time to this should not be thanked.
My point about God is that while yes, these evil people can give greater testimonies to the abused and killed, it damns evil or misguided. Instead He could change them to be nice or extremely pious to give people greater testimony as well. BUT. Even those evil people were put here for that purpose. They could not change from that path because God knew the path and set them on it. He knows everything when they are made (and before then) and thus he would only make them for what they would do (that he knew they would do). The only possible argument to this is that He made them not for that purpose, but rather just "because". Even if that were true, He still knows their purpose and would still be considered guilty in a court of law (because law matters here, right? XD).
Ellen: I like being professional, and that's just how i write
So, are you saying that, God shouldn't have created the evil people in the world?? because they are 'darned' to hell for all eternity?? because i can assure you, that i dont think that is the case.
Jaffool: Are you saying that evil people are NOT damned to hell for all eternity? (By the way, there's no reason for you to "censor" damn when we're talking about this. We don't use heck for hell.) Yes, God is creating people, knowing they will be evil, that will be damned to hell. He knows where they will go because he knows what they will do. He knows that you (if you stay on this path) will go to Heaven and that the Islam militant extremist groups that force their people to starve will go to hell. He knew that before he made you. He had to, because he knows everything. An all-powerful, all-knowing being could at any point in time make us perfect and we could all go to heaven. He could change anyone before they are judged so that they go to heaven instead of hell. But as far as we know, He hasn't done either of those. He obviously has plans and motives beyond being a caring, loving, merciful God.
Ellen: no that is not what i am saying. i am not saying that evil people will not be comdemned to such a fate, because they will, however, you are blaming the WRONG person.
Havent you forgotten WHO tempted Eve in the garden of eden?? WHO started this whole epidemic in the first place?? (Think of the other side of the spectrum, the darkness) it was Lucifer, the angel, who was perfect in every way, but his greed got the best of him, and he was cast out of heaven, and he become the Lord of sin. So named the Devil.
God, in my opinion, has TRIED oh so earnestly to create us to be the best, and has tried to rid us of our sinful nature. A baby is not born already sinning, it is sinful only after it does something sinful. A person is not CREATED evil, but MADE evil, by the things of this world. the devil does not have a hold on you UNTIL you made the choice to follow him. which is by FREE WILL.
it is not GOD that RESTRAINS you from going to heaven, it is YOUR FREE WILL, and THE DEVIL himself.
Does that make sense??
Jaffool: My point is against free will itself. Free will cannot be real in a universe with an all-powerful and all-knowing being. He knows everything you will do and say, thus making your fate already planned before you were born. If your fate has already been planned and you can't go against what God knows, then you have no free will, just a sense of it because YOU don't know what God knows. Besides, God can rid us of our sinful nature with a wave of His hand. He can kill or heal the Devil with a blink of His eye. He -is- all-powerful, after all.
Ellen: Indeed he IS all powerful, but your arguement makes no sense. You say you dont believe in God, (you only not doubt his existence). But then, you BELIEVE that he is all powerful, thus you believe in him. You say that He is all powerful, so he should be able to rid of sin and send us to heaven and doesnt. But also that, it is the illusion of free will that exists, not free will itself. but if it werent for free will, then WE would have no option as to go to heaven or hell, it would just be so. it is BECAUSE OF THE FREE WILL, that God DOESNT do that. without free will, there is no point in living. (much like the matrix, the people didnt have free will, so they didnt really have a point to live, they just existed, it wasnt until that one man, had taken the pill, and found out the truth that he HAD free will, and he had a point to live)
this world, however, is not the Matrix.
Jaffool: You are blatantly misunderstanding me. First, I do not believe He is anything because I don't believe in Him at all. I'm speaking in an if-it-were-true sense. You didn't address what I said about the fact that he would be capable of ridding the world of sin thus sending us all to heaven. The free will is an illusion, like I said, but I think you misunderstood that as well. We do not have free will. That illusion makes it seem like we're making new choices everyday, but since God knew we would make that choice 1,000 years before we were born, it was already planned. We can't go against what God knows we will do, thus we don't ACTUALLY have free will, we just feel that we do. If we knew some sort of plan, the plan that God has, we would be able to deny that and act with free will. We don't, and according to all Christian/Jewish texts, God does have that plan and since He cannot be wrong we must assume that everything we do was known by him before we did it. Thus, everyone has a preset life and that means everyone is predetermined on whether they go to heaven or hell. God knew Adam and Eve would fail. He knew that Hitler would enslave millions and kill them. Why didn't He fix the circumstances in their lives that would cause them to do that? Frankly, he would have if He really cared so much for us. Instead, He keeps us hidden away from any true knowledge and lets us fight among ourselves in futility.
Ellen: i cannot give you the answer to your question, ONLY CONSIDERING you would not believe me. God cannot "change" any circumstances. As you are saying. he knew it would happen. BUT! THERE IS A REASON that it DID happen. It may be difficult to see the whole picture, but, there is a reason why hitler killed millions. FURTHERMORE, adam and eve were never MEANT to eat the forbidden fruit. it was THE DEVIL, that tempted eve, and her FREE WILL that lead her to eat it. it was not "part of the plan". Yes, it was already known to happen, but it was never planned.
if that makes sense.
Jaffool: He knew what would become of Satan while he was still an angel, he knew what Satan would say to Eve, and he knew that she would do that. If he didn't plan for her to eat that, it wouldn't have happened. He can do anything, Ellen, that's what all-powerful means. He can change anything to a favorable circumstance, but he doesn't. There is obviously some motives behind him other than mercy and compassion, no?
I want to read your answer, by the way.
Ellen: his motives are not the issue here. It was the FREE WILL. THAT is why Eve ate the apple, because she was given the OPTION to. I know what All-powerful means. but that's beside the point. My answer is FREE will. But you believe that it is just an illusion, so there is no point in me trying to argue my point. Unless you are to believe for a second that Free will is true, nothing that i say will make sense.
it seems to me that you have had this conversation with too many people too much. you have all the questions, and i have the answers, however, it is not an answer if the opposing party is not willing to accept it. this is what i believe to be the case
its it true?
Jaffool: What you don't get is that I've been disproving the idea of free will this entire time. You're under the very spell you're saying I'm under (which may very well be true, but I definitely listen to reason and logic). You won't accept my logical proof against free will being a real thing, and thus we are at a standstill. I have argued this point with many people. I have many questions. You do not have answers. You have theories. That's what makes it a religion and not a textbook.
Ellen: well, john, that is where you are wrong, i have comtemplated the fact that free will is not existent. however, i have been given too much proof to myself that i can no longer think that it is not true. I do have the answers but we are at a loss here. i can only believe my answers are true, and you can only believe your answers are true because we are two different people with different experiences that may lead to our answers. you are not me, and i am not you. but neither you nor myself can be swayed the opposite way. you, because you think you are right, me because i think i am right. Theories? nay my friend, proof.
quick question. What do you think that christianity is all about?? what drives christianity? i need an honest answer
Jaffool: Proof that free will exists? Nothing you have said has even been in response to the facts I have brought to the table. Anything you put out here I've responded to. By saying that our two different experiences have lead us to two different "answers", you are contradicting yourself. That means that my opinion is a feasible answer, thus meaning yours has a possibility of being false. We can both be wrong, or one of us could be right. The thing is, we don't know which one is which. You have no proof but you refuse to accept that it can be anything but. Proof is purely undeniable by anyone or anything. You'd be able to PROVE me wrong because that's what it would be, proof. You can't. It's a theory.
Christianity, or any religion, is about different things to different people. It tries to solve the problem of sin in the world. Some people are Christians because they feel alone and need an idea that makes them feel not so. Some people want to go to Heaven. Regardless of why you are a Christian, the idea is to solve the problem of sin with salvation. Sin, however, is a problem not accepted by any other religion except Judaism and itself. People not of Judaism or Christianity don't even accept it as a problem, and that's why Christians tend to attract the disbelievers ire. Honestly, when you see people "wasting" their time on a problem you don't even think exists, you'd want to step in too. I am not one of these people because I accept the fact that it could in fact be the problem of human existence, I just don't believe it is.
What drives Christianity? Heavy cultural influence, a large majority, the fact that to the casual believer it is very lenient on its rules and regulations that get you into Heaven are all very important in the way Christianity gains all of its followers. What will keep Christianity in play for a long time is the fact that it has such a huge impact on societies everywhere. It won't fade from history for a long time even if it loses all of its followers because it is deeply embedded in history.
I respect people who are very devoted to it. I cannot stand people who claim to be a Christian who base their life around Jesus's forgiveness and try very little to be an example. Even more than that, however, I can't stand the people who don't know and understand what religions are. You can -believe- they are truths and answers, but you must accept that there is a possibility of your being wrong. You and too many others don't do that for whatever reason, and that is what has kept societies on edge for ages, that is what started the Crusades, and that is what will damn our societies to Hell if you don't get that through your head. If you absolutely don't accept that, you won't accept drastic differences in other societies with different religions and you'll try to change that. That will make them angry that you can't accept them, and then you will fight. You'll say you were being righteous, but instead you were playing the fool.
Ellen: Interesting. Very interesting.
But i must say, there are some points that i disagree. (as usual) You see, i dont think you are reading the situation correctly (I am NOT saying that you dont make some very valid points, you do) however, christianity was never meant to be that way. It is a relationship. not a religion. And that is what confuses most people.
i understand completely where you are coming from. i respect it, and i think you are right on some points.
i do accept that there is a possibilty of being wrong. others may not, but personally i do. My greatest fear in Life is the fear of being wrong. and i feel very strongly about that. at times, yes, i do in fact feel doubtful, HOWEVER. I have been graced with too much, and shown time and time again that there is no chance that i could possibly be wrong.
sorry, i didnt get all of your main points. if you would care to address them in a more organized manner, i can respond, but i just couldnt since in long emails, i dont know where to start.
Also, i am interested to hear. Where do YOU personally think you will go when you die?
Jaffool: You cannot deny that Christianity is a religion. That is the basics. Honestly.
You say you accept that there is a possibility, then go on to say how you've been given "too much" and that there is no chance of you being wrong? Do you not see how that is completely and utterly contradicting?
The points you haven't addressed are the free will ones. You haven't made any attempt to disprove me, just denied their existence.
I believe I don't and pretty much can't know where I will go.
Ellen: it IS somewhat of a religion. but in my opinion, its more of a relationship.
Yes, i know it is contradictory. I struggle with that. .. but its more of "you know, maybe im wrong. . .NO. THERE IS NO WAY THAT I AM WRONG." Like that. its confusing since ur not me. but yea . . .. .
i dont know what to say about the free will issue. you see, the problem is that it all makes sense to me, because i believe that free wil is real, so i dont really know what to say.
Jaffool: So you can't explain your side. Likewise, your argument against being wrong seems more like a desperate, "It has to be true!" sort of statement. I don't think you understand that you can be happy even when you acknowledge the fact that God may just... Not be there. It's okay to think he might be and to plan accordingly. It's NOT okay to put yourself in denial of the fact that you could be wrong. Translate that to simpler terms and you get: It's okay to be stubborn. It's not okay to be insane.
Ellen: I CAN EXPLAIN MY SIDE. but the PROBLEM is, YOU wouldnt believe, or maybe just think that i could be right. BECAUSE you dont believe in free will, and i do. THAT is the issue, not me not being ABLE to explain anything. . . .it is not a "desperate cry". it is more of a "i have been given too much proof to be right. i cannot be wrong." like in a lawsuit when you have ALL of the evidence you need (and much more) to plead your case. i have all of the evidence. and that is all i need.
I understand it. I just dont believe it. not one bit. Just give me a reason. What are the other reasons that you can be happy without God??
(btw, are you a creationist??)
Its not denial, John.
Jaffool: You obviously can't explain your side. You've mistaken the question at hand. The question isn't something beyond free will, it's proving that it can exist. The ONLY logical side that has been given has been against free will and it was given by me. You can't refute what I said, and now you want to use free will as some sort of proof for God. God can't bestow free will without making a creature that he somehow would not know what it would do. That would make Him not all-knowing.
What are the reasons I can be happy without God? Did you seriously just ask that? Well, I can be happy without God because I don't need a mysterious and yet far-too-personable being to lean on. I have myself to lean on. I get my love and my hope from every day I wake up. I don't need someone to tell me that Jesus or God loves me. I could live without your love. I'd be unhappy, but I'll be damned if I wouldn't know how to live on. Loved or not, you can change society and no matter how little that is, it's worth living for. What is society for? I don't know, but it's all we have to try and improve besides ourselves and trying to do the latter we do anyway.
It is denial, Ellen. You're denying that you can possibly be wrong because you "have all the evidence". If you have all the evidence, I pray, share it with the rest of us. We're dying to hear it.
Ellen: Ok. if you are sure that free will does not exist. answer me this. Why woud God create us without free will? You say that he has "other motives" but what do you think they are?? you must have some reasoning for yourself to believe that God did not create us with free will. and i am interested to know what that is.
So one reason. You dont need love. but that is hardly a reason. i had meant to say. . .more of an example if you will. Like, you have something in place of God i suppose. (please excuse my clarification error.)
I have. But i cannot "share it" persay. my "evidence" is more of experience. things that have happened to me in the past that have made me so sure. You see, there are somethings in life that you have but. .. are just disregarded by other people. only because these other people werent THERE. its not as big of a deal beacause they never lived it. I could tell you if you would want to hear it. however. it would not mean the same to you as it does to me. because you did not live it, as i have.
Jaffool: I'm only saying that if God is real, then free will is not, though we will always feel as though we have free will. In order for God to create us without free will, as I said before, our futures and actions would have to be beyond His knowledge, thus making our lives and actions truly chosen by ourselves. God chooses what we do because He alone knows what we will do when He makes us. He knew our exact plan, and no matter what we cannot deviate from that plan because that would be defying God.
You don't understand... We don't need God. I'm happy without him. Asking why I can live without a God is like asking why I can live without eating Oreos. I don't need it to sustain a happy life. In the words of the Fourteenth Dalai Lama, Tenzin Gyatsu, "If you have a particular faith or religion, that is good. But you can survive without it."
Experience is often only proof in how it is interpreted. There are more options as to how any such situation could have happened, and without you being able to disprove every other possible circumstance, that makes it not proof. You can tell me the situations and experiences, and if I can give you a single circumstance that you can't say beyond a doubt didn't happen, you have to accept that what you have is not proof and is, at best, something that points strongly towards God but isn't 100% pointing in His direction.
Ellen: However, knowing and doing are two different things. He did KNOW thus making him all-knowing. But in giving us free will, it was all meant to save us from ourselves, essentially. what kind of a God would he be if he created us to all be robotic nobodies? a pretty bad one in my opinion. The world was never meant to be created evil. When God created it it was good. all good. However, deception entered the equation, and thus the world as we know it. He DID KNOW it was going to happen. but it wasnt necessarily MEANT to be that way.
No, asking why you can live with out Him, is like asking to live without water. yes, you CAN survive, but for how long? a mere three days my friend. But agnosticism IS a religion. i hope you realize that. And having God isnt all about being happy as you are under that impression.
That is where the slight complication exists....
Jaffool: If you know what you're doing, then they are very much related. He only made us robotic nobodies in the most vague sense of the term. Creating us knowing what we will do and the like makes us destined to do just that. He did know what we would do, correct? And He can change anything, correct? So, in conclusion, He COULD have made there be no corruption. He knew we would be corrupted, but He didn't do anything to change that despite Him having every ability to do so. That means that He is just as much to blame, if not more for our corruption. An example is a scientist who designs a bomb for a terrorist group, knowing that it would be used to bomb innocents. He then turns around and claims that He MEANT for the bomb to be used for mining. He knew what it was for. He had the option of not designing it, or making it less powerful and less lethal. He didn't.
I hope you realize that everyone in this world is not Christian or Jewish lives without God everyday. Atheists live without gods at all, so do Buddhists. I live without a god, yet I'm happy. Having God is about getting a better life in death, and thus not about being happy here. But you only actually think you might receive that if you believe. I don't, and thus the only benefits of having a god is for your life here on Earth to become more happy, more "fulfilled". I don't need that fulfillment or happiness because I have my own fulfillment and happiness from being alive and interacting with others.
Agnosticism can be considered a religion when you look at certain people, but with me, it is not. I don't have rituals (which ALL other religions have), I don't have any divine beliefs (which almost all other religions have), I could be considered to have scripture, I suppose, and agnostics have very little associations with one another. Extreme Atheists have a religion against religions. Agnostics are labeled that because of their 'lack' of religious choice. More extreme Atheists oppose religions in quite literally a religious sort of way. They have doctrines and associations, leaders and the like.
Conclusion: Agnosticism, while classified as a religious belief, is not an actual religion. It is the lack of choosing a religion. Atheism is an opposition to religion, stating that they are false and often Atheists believe religions are the evil in this world. Atheism has a problem and a solution just like EVERY other religion, agnosticism does not. People can have a one man religion as an agnostic, but that is if they take strong stances against or for religions and preach them like doctrine, and can clarify a belief in one most important problem in this world and can then offer a solution.
The problem for Christianity is sin. The solution is salvation.
The problem for Judaism is exile. The solution is return.
The problem for Confucianism is chaos. The solution is order.
The problem for Atheism is religions. The solution is no religions.
The problem for agnosticism is .... There is no solution when there is no problem.
Ellen: So you would rather have never existed as opposed to lived in this world? becaue that is pretty much what you are wanting to happen.
oh ok. i understand. so its atheism that is the religion, but not agnosticism. gotcha.
Jaffool: ... When did I ever say that? I'm not even sure how you came to that conclusion.
Please tell me that isn't sarcasm I'm smelling. Perhaps I've overrefined my sarcasm senses.
Ellen: well, you seem to be saying that it is all God's fault for what happened, and whatnot. and you said that "He COULD have made there be no corruption. He knew we would be corrupted, but He didn't do anything to change that despite Him having every ability to do so. That means that He is just as much to blame, if not more for our corruption."
so i was merely asking if you would rather have never existed as opposed to living in the world. Would you rather have not existed as opposed to living on a corrupted earth? Would you rather have not been created?
im wasnt trying to say that is what you were saying, i was only trying to ask a question. i apologize for the misunderstanding, that was entirely my fault.
no no no its not sarcasm. i was being serious. (that wasn't sarcastic either)
Jaffool: No problem on the misunderstanding, I was just wondering how.. XD While I did say all of that stuff and it's all meant to prove how at the very least God shouldn't be defined the way He is, a perfect world is a world I would rather not live in. I would much rather be in a corrupt one like this, where there is so much more to do and hope for.
My bad. >.>
Ellen: no, i dont mean, would you rather live in a perfect world, i mean, would you rather have never existed?
its fine
Jaffool: No. I would much rather exist in ANY world than not exist at all.
Ellen: so i see. but i think, THAT is the very reason why God let all of this happen. Good or bad, you are alive. And that is all that matters. He created the world, so that you could live. dont you see?
Jaffool: So, are you the Christian deist type? (Edited in. In response to this, I’ll go ahead and say that while that could be a simple enough motive, the very possibilities He has to not only create us but then to make us perfect and holy are endless. He would still be considered a bad person.)
Ellen: what is that??
Jaffool: Pasted straight from a Christian Deist site.
A deist is a person who believes that God designed and created the world and governs it through natural laws that are inherent in everything. These natural laws can be discovered through observation, experience, and reasoning.
Deism is a religion based primarily on nature and reasoning, in contrast to other religions that are based on alleged "revelations" that come through some "supernatural" means. Deists believe that human beings have "free will" and have responsibility for choosing how they live in relation to natural laws that govern the world.
Ellen: i suppose so then....im not sure....
all i know is that. A. God created the Earth. B. God created you to have a relationship with you. and C. God sent his Son to die on a cross, so you COULD havea relationship with him.
anything else. . .however, those are absolute truths that i believe. but anything else, i CAN sway on. not likely, but possible.
oh and D. Free will exists (without it, we wouldnt be in this whole mess)
Jaffool: This is going to be my last clarification on free will before I completely and utterly give up on the subject. What I mean by us having an illusion of free will and not free will is that based on what we KNOW, we have free will. If you add God into the equation, a preset schedule that he knows makes it fact that we don't have free will, yet without us having any of the true knowledge He does, we still feel as though we have free will because we are "making choices" every day.
Ellen: i understand what you mean, i really do.
however, free will is just one of those things i dont sway on. im sorry, im probably way to stubborn for your taste, but i cant be convinced otherwise. im sorry.
Jaffool: Then we have nothing more to discuss, unless you have more questions.
Ellen: which i do.
well, i looked over your note again about agnosticism. and i was wondering, do you believe in faith? or not?
Jaffool: Faith has its uses and can occasionally pull someone from a tough situation if they don't have the strong morals and ethics to get themselves through. We have faith in every piece of information we have, even our own physical existence, so there is always need for at least a measure of faith.
Ellen: well, becuase you said you and i quote "dont understand why people have it." so im just a little perlpexed by that commment.
honestly i dont know if i understand what you were trying to say in that paragraph...
Jaffool: I don't understand why people put faith in God or any religion most of the time. They don't usually have any good reason, they just tell me how they feel good and stuff. The only reason they had for initially becoming a Christian is usually their parents influencing them.
Ellen: i dont the deny the parental influence, but you must understand that some people DIDNT have that infulence. Some people who accepted Christ were on drugs or something, and they didnt grow up in a Christian home. Faith is more of "believing what you cannot see" that's what faith is.
Jaffool: Faith is believing what does not have proof. That's why it's called blind faith.
Ellen: what kind of proof persay? like no physical proof?
is that what you mean?
Jaffool: Yes. No proof that you can show anyone, or proof at all for that matter.
Ellen: well, one would not believe something with NO proof, so there IS some proof
a child is gullible, but not stupid. the believe things based on what they know. for example. when they lose a tooth. they put it under their pillow and the next day it is gone. (so, they believe the tooth fairy took it) because they know it was there, and now its gone.
everything must have SOME proof. otherwise it would not be believeable
Jaffool: Your example is not proof that his theory is true. It is proof that the tooth fairy is plausible. I'm talking about proof that makes you right.
Ellen: ok john, quick question. Are trust and faith the same thing? in your opinion???
Jaffool: No. Trust is given from experience. Faith is given in hope.
Ellen: so, if my youth leader said that "the problem is with our trust in God", would you say that is correct??
Jaffool: No, the problem is with sin on earth, not with trust in God.
Ellen: well, yes, but his speech was about the evil in the world, and how we always blame God for our problems...so "evil isnt the problem, but our trust"
that's what he was saying
Jaffool: Well, the idea is that yes, it is His fault, but if you have faith you don't actually hold it against Him because you believe it's all a part of the plan.
Ellen: how is it His fault???
dont you remeber that it is really the devil's "fault" persay
ok, john....here's the thing, you have said that without PROOF, i cannot be proven right....
true?
so what PROOF do you mean? what is the PROOF that you need?
Jaffool: Don't type anything more than a one word answer to my questions.
Is God all-powerful, meaning He can do anything He pleases and change any circumstance?
Ellen: yes
Jaffool: Is God all-knowing, meaning He knows everything that we will do and everything that He will do and anything that anything will do in the future and what they have already done in the past?
Ellen: yes, and ur thoughts too
Jaffool: Right.
God knows everything that Satan will do and everything He has done, and did know all of this before He created him?
Ellen: yes.
Jaffool: God can then change anything about Satan or anything about the person that Satan wishes to tempt or force to do evil so as to make the person in question not do this evil thing?
Ellen: yes, yes he can
Jaffool: And so by having the ability to change this and by not using this ability, He is at fault just as much as Satan. It's just like if I knew about a murderer and could turn him into the cops to stop his killing, yet didn't although the situation with God is more absolute because the cops may not actually catch him when I turn him in, while God cannot be defied.
Ellen: God has delt with satan, he has a plan, and he will b punished and delt with, and since God is "outside of time" its as if it has already been delt with.
Jaffool: Punishment is not in question. Prevention is. If I turn the killer in AFTER he kills another while I knew, I am still an accomplice to that crime. God could have stopped him, yet didn't, and while He may punish him accordingly, He is still just as much at fault as Satan.
Ellen: does that make sense?
Jaffool: Does.. What I said make sense? Yes, yes it does.
Ellen: no, what I said, silly john
that 'God has delt with satan, he has a plan, and he will b punished and delt with, and since God is "outside of time" its as if it has already been delt with.'
Jaffool: While he may be, we are not. Besides, if he punished Satan ahead of time or out of time, Satan could no longer perform the acts he does.
Ellen: if he punished him out side of time, then time has no restraint on him....its a difficult concept.....in our world, everything runs on time, time time time...to even fathom that something is "out of time" is completely beyond us
Jaffool: Then how might it be possible for something out of time to interact with regards to time? Matter of fact, the Bible starts telling us day by day (in other words, in measurable time) how God creates the world. It also must be seen that God only punishes once acts are performed. If he punished for acts in advance, our lives would be miserable, yet we'd live making no mistakes because any time we might make one, we'd be punished first. Whether he is "out of time" or not isn't even the question. The punishments he performs is "in time", or else it really couldn't be described by us in any way. The story of Satan falling from Heaven? In time.
I still don't understand how any amount of logic or conviction lead to this belief. I know of nothing that would make you believe in something you don't understand, have never seen or felt or heard or smelt or tasted. Instead, the only reason you might have begun was for the belief that others had these answers even though they never actually give them to you. Can you give me a basis for your belief beyond faith? If not, I won't hesitate to inform you that your belief shouldn't be put with such little thought behind it. Weighing of pros and cons is absolutely necessary when thinking about believing in something that will change your life forever. If it would be for the good of all, then perhaps it is right to believe in. But from what I understand, with the millions of differing opinions and areas of disagreement, it is not best to choose a side and hold steady. That results in anger, misunderstandings, hatred, and both literal and metaphorical murder. My logic remains flawed, however, in that true peace can never be reached, or even if it could it would be too boring and uneventful to be a life worth living. Chaos is the fabric of our lives. Without it, happiness as we know it would cease to exist and only a monotonic, perhaps even euphoric and, changeless life would ensue. While this life is as meaningless as the one previously described, it remains changing and is the only thing we know. I would sooner turn to acts of "evil" than allow the new life to occur.
Ellen: The point is that He is timeless....he can step into and out of time....but time does not have any sort of a restraint on him. thus, he is timeless.
have you considered that it wasnt logic at all that lead to this belief? that is is truth....more and more, the bible is being proven and proven again and again. that is the real basis for our belief, the fact that we have a book with everything we need to know. have you read the bible before? i thought you had but i wasnt sure...
Jaffool: Fair enough, I suppose.
For the love of all that is holy, do you not see that everyone has that same argument? Conflicting claims are what you have with every other religion. Each can be backed up with more or less physical "evidence" and everyone feels they have the most. I watched a video with New Tribes that was supposed to tell about archaeological truth. The more I watched the video, the angrier I got because it gave no proof at all. It gave possibilities about hypothetical things of why they happened that way that, if somehow true, WOULD prove the bible is correct. But as logic goes, you aren't supposed to just explain how it could work, you must explain why it is the only option that could have worked or that it is the most likely option by a reasonable margin. Not to mention, you said "what if it is the truth", then went on to say how it is still being worked on and "proven". So it hasn't been proven, it is only in the process of that.
You know what sucks? I can give logical explanations against God and the like, and you get to ignore it with faith, saying that there must be an answer that you just don't know. I don't have that luxury. I must prove every aspect of what I say or else it is used against me as something I can't prove. I can't fall back on saying, "Well you're just wrong and I don't know how to explain why". That would be unreasonable.
Ellen: I know, i know. it was extremely cliche of me to say that, but! there are the dead sea scrolls that were discovered, have you heard of those? they are ancient documents that contain a ton of books from the bible, thus proving that they are not just stories that some guy made up.....also, (ok in debate, there is the affirmative and the negative case) since you are more like the negative case, you dont really "bear the burden of proof". Christians as the affirmative, must 'prove' the bible, because we stumble upon people of logic, who dont belief the bible unless it has hardcore proof. When passing a person of logic such as yourself, it confuses me, that you want "proof" of the truth, but then turn around and critisize us for trying to prove it.
Indeed, that makes sense.
Jaffool: Not for trying to prove it, but for believing it before it has been proven.
I'm looking this site over. I'll get back to you afterwards.
Ellen: alrighty
Jaffool: I've looked over nearly all proclaimed proof on that site, including the Dead Sea Scrolls. I don't see how ANY of that literally proves anything to be true. I understand why you might think it does - and also a lot of it tries to disprove science (which seemed partially ignorant, but at the same time sort of made sense. I'm not siding with it mind you) - but honestly all it does is prove plausibility. Which is something I fight for, like you. I do because it is POSSIBLE, but it seems just as likely to be a lie.
Here's an interesting argument. We're reading a book called 1984. In this book (which was actually written in the 1940's), the author describes a society that is completely dominated by the government. Every movement and every conversation of every person is monitored by some sort of camera/microphone/I-haven't-actually-found-out-what-yet thing and so if anyone does anything against them they kill them. The part that is interesting is that any time someone is killed or Big Brother (the head honcho) says something wrong, they change all events in old news reports and magazines that had anything to do with them so that they didn't exist except in the memories of the living, who can't discuss it without dying themselves. Or, in the case of Big Brother, they change his speech to match what actually happened or to say something completely unrelated. These are lies, yes. But... Nobody has any proof about the change; all the previous records are burned. Memories are forgotten as time goes on. Nobody knows what is true anymore because almost everything is fake. Now, if another society discovers the remains of this one, they won't know HALF of what actually happened, because of this. Apply that to things that can't be proven in the past like the Bible and the events depicted therein.
Interesting? Very much so.
