Religious Discussion 4: Duke TIP Class

This is a discussion I had with classmates (and the teacher) in my Duke TIP e-Studies class on religions. Check it out, I know this is one of my more favorite discussions.

Jaffool: They say seeing is believing. Is the converse of that true? Is believing seeing?

I have started this thread to talk with you, my classmates, on religion and why you believe. I stated in the orientation forum that discussing and arguing religion (albeit respectfully) is a favorite pastime of mine and that is what this thread is for.

So tell me: Why do you believe? And if you don't, why do others?

Owen: I believe because i was brought up to believe. i went to church at a very young age and have loved going ever since. it is sort of second nature for me to believe since i've been around faithful christians all my life. most of my family members are strong believers as well. i know what you're saying about seeing is believing, and if we can't see God, how can we believe. that's where the word faith comes in. its something you have to trust is real, and that the stories in the Bible are true, i always tell myself, that if the stories in the Bible, by some chance are false, then whoever wrote it is one heck of a writer. i always like to ask people in rebuttle to their question about seeing is believing. the wind is a perfect example, i ask them, can you see the wind? no is the answer, but you know its there, just like God, you can't see him, but you know he's there through faith.

Jaffool: The wind is different. It is tangible. You can feel it, and we can prove its existence.

I tend to have a problem with people who say they're Christians because they were raised that way because that means you could follow any religion with the same piety and dedication that you follow Christ with. If the circumstances were different, you could very easily be devoted to Allah.
I'll explain the reasons I'm agnostic, maybe that will get things started.

Argument 1: Proof

There is no proof that any religion is true. Though this is obvious to many, a like amount claim that there are proofs. (Please note that almost every argument/discussion I have ever had was with a Christian on the other end of it, so I'll probably focus a lot on them.) Some Christians have told me that the Bible is proof of God. That... Well, that is what they're trying to prove. You can't use that which you're trying to prove as any sort of proof. Historical facts about places and certain events, while some are true, they bear no proof towards a divine cause. However, in a similar concept, I cannot prove that any religion is false. That is why I remain an agnostic and not just nonreligious.

Argument 2: Faith

What is faith? A blind belief; a belief with only hope to back it up. Trust in what you cannot see. Faith is larger than many people like to think. We have faith in everything except for one thing, our own being's existence. Fun thing to think about, you can't prove that anything exists apart from your mind (thoughts, not the physical entity). It could all be an elaborate figment of your imagination, and you can't prove statement false. Of course, we all have faith that that is untrue. If we didn't, we wouldn't give a damn about anything. But wait, if everything is faith, what's wrong with my faith? The answer: nothing. I just don't share it. I don't see why you do though.

Argument 3: Contradictions (in religions that preach an all-knowing, all-powerful God)

Perhaps, you've heard this paradox. If God is all-powerful, can He create a rock so large that He Himself cannot lift it? Don't worry, I won't try and use this as some sort of proof against God. But I do have some other, more understandable and logical, well, logic. If God is all-knowing, He can only create us with a self-perceived sense of free will. Upon creation, He knows exactly what we will do throughout our entire lives. He knows how everything will turn out. He willingly puts the evil people here, knowing what they'll do to so many. If He put them here in hopes that they will do something good, then he is stupid for knowing exactly what they will do and hoping for something different. We are all predestined by God, because he knows what we will do. In a universe with a being that is truly all-knowing, all forms of free will and independent thoughts are an illusion. Many people find this concept hard to grasp. I'm not sure why. I was in an argument with a friend recently, and he said that God put us here with free will. I told him that if God put you here and gave you a choice to do good or evil, knowing which you would choose, the other really wasn't a choice because it was your destiny to choose the other and you can't defy God. He pushed, saying that you had a choice. He doesn't understand the concept.

That's why I'm agnostic.
Discuss.

Owen: Ok John i see your points, but don't go calling God stupid for putting bad guys on earth. He put them here so we could learn. Everything happens for a purpose, whether it be to teach a lesson, or to do something else. I don't believe in Fate, but then again I believe that God knows what's going to happen in our lives and can controll it. When something bad happens i try to think about it as if i'm looking at a picture up close, i only see a very small part of what's happening and i try to step back and see a bigger part of the picture, knowing that God can see the whole thing and knows what's best. its sort of like playing a game, say a card game, you can only see your own cards, but there's someone who is not playing who can see everyone's cards. when someone makes a move that you think was stupid, but that person and the floater who knows everyones cards can understand why they made a move, possibly thinking further ahead and trying to set themselves up to make a bigger, better move later in the game. in our lives God is that person who isn't playing and he knows what the reasons behind everything is, even though we don't. whenever something bad happens to me ( i know this sounds repetitive, but stay with me) i try to make it a game thinking about why God might have wanted that to happen. For example, when i broke my arm for the 3rd time playing soccer in P.E. i sat in the nurses office thinking of different scenarios of why God wanted my arm to break. Maybe it was so i wouldn't go to PE anymore, and prevent a more serious injury, like a concussion. Maybe it was so the girls who left their game to walk me to the clinic would escape injury as well. It could also have been to make me finally decide to give up on soccer, it might've been God's way of saying that my path in life isn't Soccer. there are endless solutions and only God knows the correct one.
Again, good point about the wind being proven and everything. my other example i use is Santa. There is no proof that Santa exists, and there is even proof against the fact that he exists, but little kids around the world still believe in him. Like in the movie Miracle on 34th street, Santa is being convicted, and the proof his jury uses to prove that he exists is a dollar bill. he says that if our US government can acknowledge that God exists without proof (as it says on the dollar bill) then the Government can acknowledge that Santa exists without proof.
Wow that was really wrong, i guess i got really passionate and felt i needed to tell my side of the story, i've never met an unreligious (aethist or agnostic) and i am so excited to have someone to argue with about religious beliefs.

Jaffool: I hadn't meant to call God stupid, I had intended to clarify that but apparently I forgot that part. No offense to you or Him. >.>

Or perhaps it was to test your love of soccer. Or maybe the other kids would get a great joy out of winning that game (assuming it continued). My point isn't that there could be other reasons behind you breaking your arm, more that you really don't know at all why and there is no reason for you to assume one reason is true, such as Him not wanting you to play anymore. If you like playing it, go ahead! I could list dozens more reasons of why he may have wanted you to break your arm. Three times.

Erm. So you use the government being able to acknowledge the existence of God as proof? That sounds a lot like, "Why else would billions of other people follow Christ?" The answer is that they don't know that they're wrong (not that they are, mind you, I'm speaking hypothetically).

Lorna: Wow, this is so interesting... just the banter that you both have going on... I see both sides to what y'all are saying, and when John was talking about why God put us here when he knows we're going to do awful stuff I had total Deja Vu! I was talking to a friend about that the other day. She very Christian (while I tend to be more liberal) and we were discussing why God, if he indeed create everything, created abortion and homosexuality when his followers are so vehemently against it. Stuff like that just kind of nags at me sometimes... but please, carry on you two!

Jaffool: No, please, do partake! Why are you a Christian?

Owen: Yeah, I kind of snapped at you for calling God stupid, i know what you meant.
There are millions of different reasons God could've wanted me to break my arm, and I won't know which was the real reason until i get to heaven. by the way, since you're agnostic, what do you believe about afterlife, do you think your life will just end and you won't go anywhere afterward? the promise of Heaven is the only reason i don't mind dying, i f there was nothing to look forward to after death for me, i would be totally afraid of dying, now, i'm looking forward to it, not that i'm going to end my life early or want it to, i just won't be too upset when my time comes.
good point about why do billions of others believe in Christianity. it could be for many reasons. one is like my own, that person was raised in a Christian family and grew up a follower of Jesus. another reason might be that missionaries converted them, from another religion or non belief . I totally understand and respect your reasons for being agnostic, i just don't believe them to be correct. no offense.

Lorna: Why am I a Christian? It took me a little while to think of the answer; I am Christian because that’s all I know (and I don’t know that very well either...). I’m not baptized into any denomination, so I could really be any thing I wanted to be. I was raised in a Christian community by semi-Christian parents, and to be anything else would be unheard of. No, my parents wouldn’t mind, but everyone else would (an atheist at one of  the high schools in our town got garbage stuffed in her locker a couple years back). I’m not saying I hide who I really am, I’m saying that I don’t really know what to believe. I’m not going to stay Christian all my life. I’m going to explore other religions. If they lead me to Christianity, so be it. I'm not against it! In college I plan to take religion courses, because I don’t want to know one thing. Some times, I envy all of the people that KNOW that Jesus is the son of God, that KNOW that they’re going to heaven, but I just can’t make myself like that. I question everything. Owen, I’m not like you. Dying scares the beejezzus (don’t know to spell that, and my savior spell check doesn’t know either) out of me! But I want to live my life in a way that when I take a bite of fried Oreo at the tender age of 96 and kneel over dead, it won’t matter where I’m going. I'm nice to people. I'm charitable. I've never killed someone. Why isn't that enough to secure me a spot in everlasting life? 

Owen: Lorna,
I don't know how you feel always questioning everything. I myself was raised in a devout christian family, and have gone to church every sunday (well not every, but probly 85 % of the time). I've never really had any huge doubts, but i have had doubts at times. That's great that you are always nice to people, and are charitable, and haven't killed anyone, but that's not enough to get into heaven, there is only one requirement ( as us lutherans think, don't tell a catholic i said this) to get into heaven, and that is to believe. If you believe in Jesus and repent, then you go to heaven, it doesn't matter if you were the meanest, most parsimonious murderer out there, if you are truly sorry for what you did, and believe that Jesus has forgiven you, then you'll go to heaven. like it says in the Bible ( i don't know where exactly, i just remember the verse) it is harder for a sinner to get into heaven than it is for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle (and it's pretty hard to get a camel through the eye of a needle) this passage says that if you are a sinner you won't get into heaven, you may be saying right now that everyone is a sinner, which is true, but that doesn't mean that no one will go to heaven, Jesus came to this Earth to die on the cross to forgive us of all of are sins, in order for everyone to be able to go to heaven. like it say in John 3:19 "... so that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life" so in answer to your question, No, being nice, charitable and not having a criminal record isn't enough for you to get into heaven, all you have to do is repent and believe that Jesus has forgiven you of your sins. Again though, don't tell a catholic i said this, because they believe totally differently.

Jaffool: Lorna, you sound a lot like me. I question everything still. If you really know you're not going to be a Christian later, you aren't a Christian now, are you? Obviously you are finding happiness and the like in your life right now, so... In my not-so-professional evaluation, you don't really need that net below you to catch you if you fall.
That's how I see religion. A net, or a support beam that can hold you up in times of need. I never feel as though I need any of this. I have told certain people that they should stay Christian because of the rough life they are having, but I will never tell anyone who has a decent life to stay with their religion. I tend to be rather anti-religious at times and it's the fact that people don't understand some things that I say and rather just believe that there must be an answer or reason behind these questions I ask them that they can't answer that I can't handle. I get irritated beyond belief, like when my friend couldn't understand my reasoning on predestination. 

Owen: That's a good way to see religion, as a net, i never really thought of it that way before. you feel you don't need a net and can do fine on your own without it, and I believe that the net is essential to living a happy life.

Jaffool: Thus my question (and much of my disbelief), is it? Is it necessary? I can honestly say that I've lived the past 5 years without Christianity as happy if not happier than when I was a (loose) Christian. Granted I never really gave my beliefs any weight, but that's because I was young. Again, not using as any sort of proof against Christianity, just a statement. If I can live my life without this net, that means either A) You are weaker than me, B) You don't really need it, or (to stay consistent with my religion-enabling options) C) Your religion is correct yet will punish me in the next life instead of in this one.

Owen: You say you were a christian before, what made you change your mind, and what do your parents believe, are they agnostic as well? of those options i'd go with B, you don't need to have the net of religion there, but to me it provides comfort and a way to feel safe, like rock climbing, you don't have to have a harness, but most people decide to use one to make them feel safer.

Jaffool: I'm not even sure you could have called me a Christian before. I was young and I had never read the Bible, it was just monkey see, monkey do with my parents. Both of my parents are Christians.

Going with your rock climbing analogy, everyone is climbing a different mountain at different times in their life. The regular teen that has no significant threats to anyone in their life climbs a small hill. They don't need a harness because if they fall they won't suffer much of an injury. It's the children who are abused, the races that are oppressed, and the people under fire that really need that harness. Every religion was founded from adversity because that's what they were meant to help you overcome, adversity. I said before that I've told certain people to stay with their religion. That's because I saw what they were going through and understood why they needed a god. But when I see someone living a decent life like my own professing their love for God without understanding what it truly means to be a Christian, or to be a Muslim, or to be a Jew, I get angry.

Jesus faced adversity. Moses faced adversity. Muhammad faced adversity. Abraham faced adversity. The Buddha faced adversity (of a different type, mind you). Every great religious figure has their religion to barrel through the problems of their time. Respect is earned through achievements, and that's why people respect and, in many cases, love the people I mentioned above.

Owen: I didn't think about my rock climbing analogy as different size mountains too, that's a good point. we are all fighting our own battles, and all have our own safety features (religoins). Some people like me and my family have complicated and intricate harnesses, and are devoted to my religion. Then there are others who have loose harnesses, and say they are religious but aren't very devoted. And there are people like you who prefer to go freeclimbing without a harness, and no religion.
Another good point about people being hypocritical about their religion, it angers me too. Then there are the CEO's as i call them Christmas and Easter Only. speaking of that, do you celebrate holidays like christmas? i'm sure your beliefs about holidays aren't extreme as Jehova Wittnesses, but are they different that Christians?
I admire your ability to go against the norm in not being christian, especially since your parents are. that must take some real self confidence to be contridictary to their beliefs.

Jaffool: I do celebrate holidays like Christmas and Easter and probably will continue to do so when I have my own family, whether they are Christian or not. Despite it having a wholly religious upbringing, it is a part of our culture and I'm not about to turn my back on something that's just so much fun. Kids love it and I won't ever try to take that from them.

Frankly, I don't find my agnosticism anything to be admired. At least no more than someone else being a Christian or a Buddhist. My parents are practically CEO's, as you've called them. They don't really profess their believe often unless asked. Occasionally if my mom is in a rough spot she will thank Jesus for what she has, but not much from that. It isn't difficult to have a different belief from them. I find it sad that Lorna has those terrible things happen to the atheists at her school. Those kids need to grow up.

Back to the rock climbing, I think I do have a harness, actually. One I made myself. I may not have a religion, but I have strong morals that keep me on my feet and ready for anything. I put a deep belief in compassion and understanding. I am a pacifist. Something that bugs me, though, is when people say they will 'try' to be nicer, or 'try' to understand. That's not how it goes. You either will be or you won't. You can change yourself, but only if you really want to. If you 'try' and fail, you didn't really try.

Owen: I understand what you're saying about Christmas and Easter, most people, Christian or not, celebrate them without religion in mind, and our church is always emphasizing that Jesus is the real meaning of Christmas. Do you think you'll raise your kids to be agnostic?
I see what you're saying about your parents not being that different from you and you not having to go through as much trouble to be different from them, but I don't know if i could ever go to something other than Christianity, not just because of my faith and love for the religion, but for my parents sake as well. Its not that they wouldn't let me convert, but it would make their lives much harder and complicated, and it would be akward for them to be devout Christians, if someone else in our house wasn't.
I'm glad you have your own harness of morals. I'm a pacifist too, i think no war is justified, no matter what (but its strange that i enjoy reading fantasy books that are full of fighting, but those are fiction, so it doesn't bother me as much)

Jaffool: I won't raise my kids to be anything. In fact, that part of raising children bugs me. I know they won't be mature enough to understand until they get old enough and I won't be able to shelter them, nor will I try to. I want them to experience all the areas of religion that I did, yet I also want to see them agree with me. That, of course, is simply a fatherly thing. I will accept and love them just as much if they don't. They will make their own decisions, and despite wanting to see them believe as me, I will not accept them being agnostic because I am, just as I don't accept people being religious because their parents are.

I want you to understand that under no circumstances should you ever let other people influence your decision on religion and beliefs apart from their logic and reasoning. Just because they are something does not mean you should be as well. I am far outnumbered in terms of agnostics vs. Christians, agnostics vs. Islam, or agnostics vs. Hindus, but I don't care. I doubt many agnostics see the world the way I do either. I believe because it is what I see as right and fit.

No war in -total- is justified. However, when somebody fights to save others, I consider theirs a justified fight. I am a pacifist, but I would have gladly signed in for the fight in World War II. Some things must be done for the greater good. Just like Osama bin Laden's death, it was for the greater good. I did not celebrate it though, along with most of the Americans surveyed in Time's magazine poll that asked if bin Laden's death should be celebrated.

I love fantasy books that are full of fighting and video games that are jam-packed with violence, blood, and gore. That's because we're men! xD

Owen: That's great that you'll let your kids decide what to believe, I know i'll raise my kids to be Christian, and i'd have trouble marrying someone who wasn't Christian (not that I wouldn't, it woud just be hard).
I try not to let people influence me about religion, but of course the biggest influence was to become Christian, I was so to say, forced into Christianity, I went to church every week with my parents and didn't have to like it, but i did. I made the choice to be a serious christian. I have friends who are "Christian" i put it in quotes because they go to church every sunday, but only because their parents make them, if they had it their way, they wouldn't be going at all.
To me, there is never a winner of a war. when we were talking about the Civil war in school this year, something we read called the battle of Chancerlorsville a phyrric victory, no one knew what phyrric meant, and out teacher told us that it meant a victory that came with a loss. The confederates won the battle, but lost Stonewall Jackson too. I was thinking, then wouldn't every victory be phyrric, since so many people die. There is no way i'd ever sign up to fight in any war, no matter what the circumstances, and if i was drafted and forced to fight, i wouldn't fight, i'd be a nurse, or someone who doesn't fire a gun. What you said about Bin Laden, i agree and disagree, no way in the world should his death be celebrated, but even if it was for the greater good, it shouldn't have been done. It hurt me to hear Obama say that justice has been served, justice is never ever killing someone, there are much more peaceful ways to go about things.
I got into an argument with my youth group leader at church about that topic too. He had seen the movie "battle los angeles" and said it was inspiring. I told him, based on my minimal knowledge of the movie, that in no way is a bunch of military guys shooting the heck out of a bunch of aliens inspiring. He said that what was inspiring was the bravery of one group of soldiers, ok that may be inspiring to some, but not to me. to me, inspiring would be for the government to befriend the aliens and become allies, even if the aliens attack first. there need to be less movies about the military destroying other people on first look, and be more movies like avatar and dancing with wolves, where at first the characters try to destroy the "bad guys" but in the end befriend them. that's inspiring.

Jaffool: I hope you realize that the only way to really be able to talk to Osama would have been to -kill- his guards. Even then, he was a radical, and no one would have been able to convince him against his religion any more than I can convince you against yours. Do you see the hypocrisy in your arguments? While it would be good to think that words can solve anything, they may not always work, and if they do that doesn't mean that they will save the most lives. If you had a choice to shoot a man between the eyes to save the thousands of people he had captured or to talk it out with him, even possibly convince him against his ways, knowing that the captured would be slaughtered, what would you choose? For the sake of humanity, I hope you would shoot him. It is a pity, neither end wins, but one end is better than another. Bin Laden would certainly have killed more people.

With the aliens, first of all it is a fiction movie so not every circumstance would have been given thought to because that could seriously hinder the plot. But if the entire human race was being enslaved and slaughtered, would you A) kill the damned things for killing almost everyone you know, knowing that they are beyond reason, or B) try to talk with one of them (who doesn't understand your language) and get killed yourself? Inspiring, to me, is to do what's right even under extreme circumstances. Sometimes the right thing would be considered evil if it lacked the context of the situation.

I ask of you one thing, and that is not to turn your back on your religion, but to give your children the chance to choose any religion they see fit. Grant me this truth, if you would: no religion has any proof of correctness. Based on that, choosing a religion is like drawing numbers from a hat. You should let them choose for themselves, not restrict them to one number.

Owen: As an answer to both of your questions about the terrorist and the aliens, my one simple response is... i'll cross that bridge when I get to it. as i always tell people who say they'd be the hero in those situations, it's one thing to say something, and another to do it. You can say all you want that you'd take the first option of shooting the guy in the head and rescuing everyone, but until you are actually standing there with a gun in your hand with the choice, you'll never know what you would do. It's like you hear some stories of soldiers who are the best guys out on the battle field shooting from long range and picking people off one by one, but then when they actually have to kill someone close at hand, like with a knife or something, they can't do it. they can kill whoever they want to as long as there's no face to the corpse, but a lot of people when the situation comes, can't bring themselves to take someone elses life when they are right there next to them. I always think of the movie Prince Caspian in the Narnia series. ( if you haven't seen it, this will make no sense) but during the whole movie, Peter is a vicious soldier, and can just go through the evil King Miraz's castle and slay guards left and right, but when he is battling Miraz one on one, and finally disarms him, he can't bring himself to kill him, and neither can Prince Caspian.
and about my kids, I don't think i'd be able to let them choose, It would pain me to have to wait so long until they can acutally understand what religion is and the beliefs of all of them are, just so they could choose. I don't think i'd be able to wait ten or twelve years for my kids to go to church for the first time. I think i'll raise them to be christian, and then when they are older, tell them that they can convert to another religion if they choose to. I know their decision would be biased with their beliefs that Church has raised them to have, but then all the more likely they'll choose to stay christian. and choosing a religion is in no way like picking out of a hat to me at least. your parents raise you as part of their religion, which you have no control over, but still not the point, and then you can do research and decide if you want to convert, because there is plenty of proof for every religion, not just christianity.

Jaffool: My point was not about if you would or not, my point was that you should do what's right and shoot him. If you can shoot him, repentant or not, to save hundreds of people, DO IT. That's all I have more to say about that.

Your children will be biased towards Christianity, and while that may not be a problem, there should be morals behind this. Explain to me how religion isn't like picking numbers out of a hat? There is essentially a random chance of any religion being correct, making it similar to this.

Owen: Ok, so I should shoot him, fine by me, I still think I wouldn't though, but again, I'll cross that bridge if I ever get to it.
You're right, we don't have a choice in what religion our parents raise us to be, that is somewhat like picking out of a hat, except we aren't picking. Picking out of a hat is something you do when you can't decide, like if my brother, sister and I all have a movie we want to watch at the same time, we'll put all of them in a bowl and my dad will pick one, because we can't agree. With religion, if you do have to make a choice because your parents didn't raise you to be anything, then you would do some research and maybe take a class like this and find out which religion would be best for you. You would try to figure out which religion best suits you, and which one you think there is the most proof towards, and that would be the one you go with. You may also go to worship services of different religions, and see which one you agree with their beliefs. Religion is not about just going to church and praying, it's about having a relationship and friendship with your god(s), or divine being(s). Choosing a religion would be finding a god or divine being that you can have a relationship with and be close to, and not be afraid to speak to, I know you wouldn't know how this feels being agnostic, but I always feel myself when i'm praying, i feel that i can talk to God about anything, withoug ridicule. I have a close relationship with Him even though i've never met him, i just know he's there with me everyday. I know he's here with me right next to the computer as i'm typing this, and that's the goal of a religon, to become closer to your god. so when choosing a religion, its not about randomness, its about finding something that fits your personality and level of need.

Jaffool: You are correct in your description of choosing a religion. I won't argue further on that. However, I can clearly imagine how it would feel to talk to a being that is perfect in my own mind because if that being were perfect to me, I -could- say anything without being judged.

For instance, I agree with most Buddhist writings that I've ever read, particularly things written by Tenzin Gyatso, the 14th Dalai Lama. I considered becoming Buddhist once. The only thing is that I wouldn't believe in their after-death beliefs, I would only believe in the teachings.

Let me challenge your morals. Do you believe in equality among humans? Are we all equal?

Timothy Wardle: John,

I'm not going to directly address your question to Owen, at least not right now.  But I do have a question regarding your second paragraph.  You stated that you considered becoming Buddhist but couldn't accept their after-death beliefs.  There is something in this admission that I admire.  There are MANY people today who like to describe themselves as "spiritual," and greatly dislike the somewhat synonymous term of "religious."  To me, being "spiritual" means that you can choose to pick and choose from different religions and make up your own religious system.  I think this is crazy on many levels.

What I find remarkable is that you are not doing this.  You realize that religions are complex animals, and to accept, or believe in, a religion is to accept all of it. The various religions of the world all make demands of their followers. To believe in a particular religion is to also agree that there is some higher authority/power structure that has some claim on you.  This is precisely (at least to me) what people who claim to be "spiritual" are seeking to avoid.  They want to be in control, and do not want to relinquish this control to anyone or anything else.    

According to this post and others that you have written (and I haven't read all of them in this off-topic discussion!), you have chosen not to believe in a particular religion, because you either can't accept all of it or you have questions that can't be answered (or some other variation of this). This is an intellectually honest position, and I applaud you for it.  But it did make me wonder whether it is the "claim" that a religion makes that bothers you?  Is it that there is an actual choice to make and you don't want to choose one because it means eliminating the others? Is it something else?  You may have already addressed this, but I'm curious. And sorry that this ended up being quite long!

Jaffool: It wasn't really that long. Many of Owen's and my own posts were longer than that. This post will be longer than that. >.<

What bothers me is a few things, and I can never really decide which bothers me the most. One is that religions can conceivably have been created to make peace, and if that is true, many people have lost all sight of that and instead try only to convert others or kill them. If that is true, people need to see all other religious people as on their side, not against them. It bothers me to realize that world peace would be much more plausible if religions had ceased to exist. Granted, a lack of religions could also send our world into total chaos with no morals, but just the possibility bugs me.

Also, the fact that people can so blindly put their absolute faith in a religion and then turn to me and say it was so enlightening bothers me. They essentially give up what intellectual reason they once had, and they all could understand where I am coming from, but choose not to.

A smaller, more shallow reason that I don't claim any religion my own is all of the misaligned people in each religion. I don't want to associate myself with them in any way. Ironically, I do associate myself with them sometimes when I give quotes from them that I find wise, morally correct, or that I simply agree with whether they were meant in the way I interpret or not. Such as when I posted on my Facebook page this quote from Karl Marx, writer of the Communist Manifesto, "Religion is the opium of the people."

When it comes down to it, I tend to think that third one is the heaviest reason I have. Every person I talk to about religion refuses to accept things that I say or occasionally refuses certain morals simply because of what is written in their sacred book. I want to be open to all, and claiming myself to a religion will limit that openness.

I want our world to understand everything I understand as much as I want to understand everything that the world understands. I wouldn't put it above myself to think that some of my reasons are based around being in control. I will not stand idly by, however, when things like Lorna said are happening. An Atheist getting garbage shoved in his locker because of his beliefs? That's not right in the least, especially considering the teachings these "Christians" are supposed to have been raised with. I suppose I want to fight for religious tolerance and move on from there to instill some rational ideas into people. Ideas like the possibility that their God isn't real, or that not everything in their sacred texts should be taken in a certain way or listened to at all.

I don't feel completely right with all that I have typed here, but neither can I deny them.

Timothy: John, a few responses. One, while I agree with you that religions have sometimes (even often) been at odds with world peace, I think that our world is an infinitely richer, and more peaceful, place because of the existence of the many religions. There are so many good, religious, people in this world who do make this world a better place to live.  And what drives them toward the good work that they do is their religious beliefs.  

Deep down, it is these people that I want to be like.  For this reason, I resonate with your "shallower" reason for not liking religion--I am often embarrassed by the things that some people who call themselves "Christian" do.

You mentioned toward the end that you wanted to fight for religious tolerance.  I'd love to hear your thoughts on the following question.  Do you think it's possible, on the one hand, to be religiously tolerant, and on the other hand, to claim that only one religion is correct?  

Jaffool: I do agree that our world is better in many, if not most respects because of religion. But the uses of religion has diminished over time, and I expect that at some point their efficiency of dealing with problems well or bad will decrease if we don't spread some sort of understanding about the religions. Religions seem to require a lot of care and tending to make them useful. Although I don't think religions are really the problem, they can just be used to advance the problem. The real problem is in the way people interpret things and their moral codes. We need to make some people change their killing ways, or their hateful ways. That would be practically impossible.

In response to your question, I'm not really sure. The only way I can imagine it being possible is for the whole of humanity to act like the Jews in their arguing and discussing of ideals without becoming hostile. Or, of course, to isolate each group from the others, but that wouldn't work because of the children who grow up and wish to check into other areas. That wouldn't really be religious tolerance, though. My question for the definition of religious tolerance, though, is do we need to be tolerant to those who have murderous, sacrificial, or simply evil religions?

There are two options that I see to recover and improve our world's religions.
A) Teach everyone the difference from right and wrong as defined in their religions, being sure to disprove and destroy evil or intolerant interpretations. We would have to accept certain interpretations and not others. Would that really be religious tolerance?
B) Rid the world of religions and teach instead a code of honor, moral lessons that are in line with what is good for the sake of humanity. This can be taught, however, with religions still intact. This is... Oh, hello, this is what I'm going to work on now...
Or perhaps I won't work on that. I just realized that writing something as such would be hypocritical to aiding religions, it would be similar to a religion itself, and if someone didn't accept that, I couldn't force it on them. What do you guys think? Is it necessary?

Sadly, the course ended before anyone had time to respond. Or maybe I just didn’t copy and paste the rest of the conversation. So that’s it.